Any suggestions for research project?

Submitted by Tom Last on Mon, 11/23/2009 - 11:26am.

Joel comments: Talking about PoF will never replace trying to live it in Life.  What I'd like to see here is more reports of what people are actually experiencing in Life, and less commentary on translations and meanings of the terms.  Maybe you can improve the map, and if that is the point of this website, then fine.   I'm more interested in helping people meet the dilemmas of actual Life - their biography, than I am in discussing the meaning of words.

We have the start of a very successful translation collaboration, but this will interest only a handful of people. The translation project is a full time job for myself. I have been wondering how the website could get involved in something else. Joel's recommendation of sharing life experience would be of interest to many. Maybe Joel or someone else wants to lead a study group or research project?

A study group or research project could move through the book with an emphasis on applying what is read. Perhaps it could be about trying to verify Steiner's soul observations, which could be listed and discussed. The results could be archived in a way that would help others in their application of the book. Then the website is engaged in understanding theory and life application.

Any suggestions?

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Here's a contradiction Joel and Tom...

My experiment at the moment is with renunciation. I've been in the habit of working with Anthroposophy for decades now. You guys are in the habit of writing so much. My "spiritual research" tells me-don't bother. Leave people alone.

The focus of my inspiration is in meditation. It doesn't go any further than that. I cultivate the urge to shut up. Its great. I like it! :-)

Love

Bryn (who can go on at lenght but doesn't)

Shutting up may be what you

Shutting up may be what you need to do right now for your personal development, but I hope there are others out there for which the next step in their personal development is sharing what they know or facilitaing the views of others. Many people are registering to this website hoping to learn more about Rudolf Steiner's freedom philosophy. Learning works better with a diversity of views.

Where is Joel's original writing on this?

Tom,
 
Where is Joel’s original writing on this and the comments others had made?  Did you delete it because you did not want others to read what he said? Perhaps I am looking for it in the wrong place.
 
Tai

Joel's comment here.

Joel's comment here.

Mr. Last: "Hoping to learn more"

Mr. Last did not mention the fact that Steiner's text includes many words whose meanings are not explained by Steiner.  Mr. Joel's viewpoint is often expressed by a certain type of person who appear where Steiner's philosophy is theme. One wonders why they don't open up their own business, instead of using a place supposed to be for understanding Steiner?

Beginner is a ....

Dear Beginner,

Please speak to me directly about any issues you have with my comments or work, and be prepared to make rational arguments and offer evidence for any conclusions.  It is very unkind of you to describe me as "a type of  person" etc.  Otherwise I will follow you around with my super powers and x-ray vision and cause the publishing of all your secrets on Mr. Drudge's political website.  Its not wise to mess with a friend of Mother Nature.

Have you ever actually read, in a critical fashion, anything I've written, or do you just want to make potshots from the sidelines and not have to back anything up?

Mr. Joel

Steiner uses the word <analogy"- what does it mean?

I'm busy trying to understand the meaning of the word <analogy> which Steiner uses in the first chapter of his book. If this is the wrong research project, I'm in the wrong place. I wonder what motivates persons like Mr. Joel to distract persons from understanding Steiner's text?

Beginner continues 10 year old school yard behavior

Rudolf Steiner, in his book of lectures published under the title "The Descent of the Spirits of Darkness" pointed out that modern human beings only develop psychologically, in a natural sense, until about age 25.  He also said this was decreasing, meaning to suggest that we had experienced psychological growth naturally into later years (post 25), earlier in the evolution of consciousness, and now this was becoming less and less.

Let me say this again, in different words.  Human beings experience natural spiritual/psychological development up to a certain age.   This age has been decreasing over time, and this maturation process is stopping at younger and younger years as we go forward in time.

From this idea we can understand how certain political figures, sports figures etc. seem so immature in a way.

Steiner went on to say that cultural influences can cause us to continue to grow spiritually and psychologically, after this natural development has ceased its activity.  We can be inspired in many different ways to continue to grow, and such events as occured in the 1960's represent a culture wide infusion of those kinds of inspiring influences.  But, it is the I itself that must generate the further developmental changes, inspired by this activity.  In a sense we could say that the I experiences natural development in the soul up up to a certain age in the biography, and then afterwards must produce development out of its own forces.

Yet, it is possible for people to be present to such influences and not take them in, but rather only pretend in a kind of social way to be interested in the subject.  Their spiritual/psychological growth had stopped (run its natural course) and they join in a group activity seemingly interested in further development, but if you observe their actual behavior in the group they remain present only in an intellectual way - that is, they mouth the vocabulary of the spiritual group, but the way they treat others, the way they behave, remains limited to the nature of their personality when its natural growth arrested at some stage nearer post-adolescence.

A typical presentation of this behavior is a tendency to indulge in word games, not unlike what we knew previously when we were school children.  The intelligence presented in these games roots itself in "cleverness", rather than a grounded rationality or wisdom.  It is essentially dishonest (runs away from truth, even in the form of a little willingness to expose itself to others through the simple device of offering its true name to the group). 

It is also destructive, not creative.  This is mostly because of the self-admiration that is experienced via the cleverness.   The cleverness comes from the ahrimanic double, and the double rewards this cleverness with a feeling of pleasure at its exercise.  A more mature personalit y would feel regret or shame at these games, a kind of "prick of conscience", because the higher ego knows the behavior is not really justified. 

At the same time, this process of immaturity is quite common today, given that natural psycho-spiritual growth stops around age 25 or younger.  Also, the indulgence in the "cleverness" is not unlike an addiction.  We are all addicted in these little ways - our egotism in its self-love presents us with many opportunities to indulge our different kinds of cleverness.

As an addict in recovery myself, I find it most useful (evening loving) to confront addictive behavior in others, when it decides to repeatedly get in my face.  When it doesn't get in my face, which is most of the time, I remain free to ignore it.   Who wants to pester people all the time for all their little flaws?  Not me.  But when someone comes at me more than once, after being warned off, then as far as I'm concerned they asked for it.  Some may find the above uncomfortable, but it is simply truthful and itself based upon many years of direct introspective experience, as well as 18 years in the field of mental health.

Beginner wants to act as if I am trying to distract persons from undertanding Steiner's text, which is obviously false to anyone who actually wants to think about it.  My whole effort here has been to root the text in introspective experience, for the text actually doesn't mean anything separated from our actual observation of our own minds (soul and spirit).  Without direct observation (the soul-observation referred to by Steiner when he writes: "some results of introspection - soul-observation - following the methods of natural science") the terms of the text refer only to abstractions, that is to nothing concrete and real to experience.   We can read the words endlessly, but without looking within at the phenomena of our own mind, we'll never decode the meaning of the text.

"...even Steiner lamented in Awakening to Community (lecture three, Feb. 6th, 1923), on the consequences of failing (which has happened) to properly take up The Philosophy of Spiritual Activity (or Freedom):  "The way it should be read is with attention to the fact that it brings one to a wholly different way of thinking and willing and looking at things....The trouble is that The Philosophy of Freedom has not been read in the different way I have been describing.  That is the point, and a point that must be sharply stressed if the development of the Anthroposophical Society is not to fall far behind that of anthroposophy itself.  If it does fall behind, anthroposophy's conveyance through the Society will result in its being completely misunderstood, and its only fruit will be endless conflict!""

joel

 

Mr. Joel's "methods of natural science" [sic]

Mr. Joel's version:

1. "...the text [Rudolf Steiner's Die Philosophie der Freiheit] actually doesn't mean anything separated from our [sic] actual observation of our own minds (soul and spirit)."

2. "...the terms [sic] of the text refer to abstractions...."

3. "We can read the words endlessly, ...."

Mr. Joel is convinced he understands Steiner.

At the moment I research the concept of analogy, which appears in the first chapter in connection to Paul Rée.

 

 

for Beginner: understanding Steiner

In science it is important that an offered truth can be found by a describle method that can be repeated by others.  PoF meets this standard.   People who have "repeated" this work include: Barfield, Kuhlewind, Ben-Aaron etc.  Steiner describes, in Lecture 12 of the John Gospel Series, certain observable facts that flow from success in achieving the goal of PoF.  One becomes able to do something, not just intellectualize about something.   When Beginner can understand and appreciate the work that I have produced in my work Living Thinking in Action*, he will demonstrate to all that he is serious about this work, otherwise he just sits on the sidelines and making juvenile comments.  Yes, I do understand Steiner.  I also know** the realms of the thought -world described by Steiner in Occult Science when he refers to PoF and A Theory of Knowledge ...

* http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/liveT.html

** http://ipwebdev.com/hermit/Saving.html

When Beginner can offer a comparable work product from out of his own activity, then he can justly make comments, for he has then earned the right to put forward his views.

joel

Mr. Joel's opportune operationalism

 

There are many persons in and around the Anthroposophical Society not because they are interested in thinking and understanding ideas of Rudolf Steiner, but for their own personal careers. Such persons repeat Steiner's words, especially Steiner's lectures as a means to decorate their own prolific verbal projects. This website can be used to advertise one's own publications.

 

 

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