Chapter 2 has been restored to its original Mind-Matter discussion by bringing back the original text, removing Steiner's text revisions, and correcting the later translations which replaced Mind with Spirit. I surprised myself by removing the 1918 revisions Steiner made to chapter 2, but they were obviously added for theosophists. Steiner considered the original text complete. "Changes of text have been made only where it appeared to me that I had said clumsily what I meant to say a quarter of a century ago. (Only ill will could find in these changes occasion to suggest that I have changed my fundamental conviction.)"
Now the chapter 2 discussion in the new translation is restored to its original Mind-Matter debate relevant for today and not the Spirit-Matter debate of yesterdays theosophy.
1918 Steiner additions to Chapter 2 removed and replaced with the original Mind-Matter text
2-0 In that man is aware of himself as "I", he cannot but think of this "I" as being on the side of the spirit; and in contrasting this "I" with the world, he is bound to put on the world's side the realm of percepts given to the senses, that is, the world of matter. In doing so, man puts himself right into the middle of this antithesis of spirit and matter. He is the more compelled to do so because his own body belongs to the material world. Thus the "I", or Ego, belongs to the realm of spirit as a part of it; the material objects and events which are perceived by the senses belong to the "World". All the riddles which relate to spirit and matter, man must inevitably rediscover in the fundamental riddle of his own nature.
2-4 [7] When man reflects upon the "I", he perceives in the first instance the work of this "I" in the conceptual elaboration of the world of ideas. Hence a world-conception that inclines towards spiritualism may feel tempted, in looking at man's own essential nature, to acknowledge nothing of spirit except this world of ideas. In this way spiritualism becomes one-sided idealism. Instead of going on to penetrate through the world of ideas to the spiritual world, idealism identifies the spiritual world with the world of ideas itself. As a result, it is compelled to remain fixed with its world-outlook in the circle of activity of the Ego, as if bewitched.
September 2009 New Translation
Chapter 2
The Fundamental Desire For Science
Two souls, alas, dwell within my breast,
And each withdraws from and repels its brother.
One, in hearty lovelust,
Clings to the world with clutching organs;
The other strongly lifts itself from dust,
Into the high ancestral spheres.
Goethe, Faust I, 1112
2.0 Transcending The World Of Phenomena
[1] In these words Goethe expresses a characteristic deeply rooted in human nature. A human being is not a self-contained unity. We always demand more than the world, of its own accord, offers us. Nature has given us needs; among these are some left to our own activity to satisfy. Abundant are the gifts we have received, but even more abundant are our desires. We seem born to be dissatisfied. Our desire for knowledge is only a special case of this dissatisfaction. We look twice at a tree. The first time we see its branches at rest, the second time in motion. We are not satisfied with this observation. Why, we ask, does the tree appear to us now at rest, then in motion? Every look at nature produces a number of questions in us. Every phenomenon that comes our way presents a new problem to be solved. Every experience becomes a riddle. We see, emerging from the egg, a creature similar to the mother animal, and we ask the reason for this similarity. We observe a living being grow and develop to a certain level of perfection, and we seek the determining factors of this experience. Nowhere are we satisfied with the facts that nature displays before our senses. We seek everywhere for what we call the explanation of the facts.
[2] This something more which we seek in things, over and above what is given to us immediately, splits our whole being into two parts. We become aware of our contrast to the world. We confront the world as independent beings. The universe appears to us in the polarity: I and World.
[3] We erect this wall of separation between ourselves and the world as soon as consciousness is first kindled within us. But we never lose the feeling that we do belong to the world, that a bond exists that connects us to it, that we are beings whose place is not outside, but rather within the universe.
[4] This feeling makes us strive to bridge the contrast. And, in the final analysis, the entire spiritual striving of humankind consists of nothing but the bridging of this contrast. The history of our spiritual life is a continuous searching for the unity between us and the world. Religion, Art and Science all pursue this goal. The religious believer seeks in the revelation granted by God, the solution to the world problem posed by his “I”, which is dissatisfied with the merely phenomenal world. The artist seeks to incorporate the ideas of his “I” into various materials to reconcile what lives within him with the outer world. He, too, feels dissatisfied with the world as it appears and seeks to mold into it that something more that his “I”, transcending the world of phenomena, contains. The thinker seeks the laws of phenomena, striving to penetrate with thinking what he experiences through observation. Only when we have made the world-content into our thought-content do we again find the unity from which we have detached ourselves. We will see later that this goal can only be reached if the task of scientific research is understand on a much deeper level than is usually the case.
The whole relationship I have presented here between the “I” and the world is found historically in the conflict between the one-world theory, or Monism, and the two-world theory, or Dualism. Dualism directs its view solely to the separation between “I” and World brought about by human consciousness. All its effort is an ineffectual struggle to reconcile these polarities, which it may call Mind and Matter or Subject and Object, or Thought and Phenomenon. The Dualist feels that there must be a bridge between the two worlds, but is not able to find it.
Monism directs its view only upon the unity and tries either to deny or blur the contrasts actually present. Neither of these two points of view satisfy us, for they do not do justice to the facts. The Dualist sees in Mind (I) and Matter (World) two fundamentally different realities, and therefore, cannot understand how they can interact with each other. How should Mind know what goes on in Matter, if the essential nature of Matter is entirely alien to Mind? Or how should Mind under these circumstances influence Matter in such a way that its intentions translate into deeds? The most ingenious and the most absurd hypotheses have been put forward to solve these questions.
But, so far, the Monists are not in a much better position. They have tried to solve the problem in three different ways. Either they deny Mind and become Materialists; or they deny Matter in order to seek their salvation as Spiritualists; or they claim that even in the simplest entities in the world, Mind and Matter are indivisibly united so it is not surprising if these two kinds of existence both appear in the human being, seeing that they are never found apart.
2.1 Materialism (Material World)
[5] Materialism can never provide a satisfactory explanation of the world. For every attempt at an explanation must begin with the formation of thoughts about the phenomena of the world. Materialism, therefore, starts with the thoughts of Matter or material processes. But in doing so, it already has two different sets of facts before it: the material world and the thoughts about it. The Materialist tries to understand thoughts by regarding them as purely material processes. He believes that thinking takes place in the brain in about the same way as digestion takes place in the animal organs. Just as he attributes mechanical and organic effects to Matter, so he also credits Matter with the capability, under certain conditions, to think. But he overlooks that all he has done is shift the problem from one place to another location. The Materialist attributes the power of thinking to Matter instead of to himself. This brings them back to his starting point. How does Matter come to reflect upon its own nature? Why is it not simply satisfied with itself and content to accept its own existence? The Materialist has turned his attention away from the specific subject, his own I, and occupies himself with an unspecific, hazy configuration. And here the old problem comes up again. The materialistic view cannot solve the problem; it can only shift it to another place.
2.2 Spiritualism (World of Mind)
[6] And what of the Spiritualist view? The pure Spiritualist denies Matter (World) any independent existence and regards it merely as a product of Mind (I). He regards the whole phenomenal world to be nothing more than a fabric woven by Mind out of itself. This view of the world finds itself in difficulties as soon as it attempts to deduce from Mind any single concrete phenomenon. It cannot do so either in knowledge or in action.
2.3 Knowledge of the External World (External World)
If one would really know the external world, one must turn one's eye outwards and draw on the fund of experience. Without experience Mind can have no content. Similarly, when it comes to action, we have to translate our intentions into realities with the help of material things and forces. We are, therefore, dependent on the external world.
2.4 Idealism (World of Ideas)
The most extreme Spiritualist, or if you prefer, Idealist, is Johann Gottlieb Fichte. He attempts to derive the whole world structure from the "I". What he actually accomplished is a magnificent thought-picture of the world, but one without any empirical content. As little as it is possible for the Materialist to argue the Mind away, just as little is it possible for the Idealist to do without the external world of Matter.
2.5 Fiction of Senses and Thought
[8] A curious variation of Idealism is the view of Friedrich Albert Lange presented in his widely read History of Materialism. He holds the position that the Materialists are right in declaring all phenomena, including our thoughts, to be the product of purely material processes, but, conversely, Matter and its processes are themselves a product of our thinking.
“The senses give us only the effects of things, not true copies, let alone the things themselves. But among these mere effects we must include the senses themselves, along with the brain and molecular vibrations within it."
That means our thinking is produced by the material processes, and these are produced by the thinking of the "I". Lange's philosophy, in other words, is nothing more than the story, translated into concepts, of the brave Baron Münchhausen, who holds himself up freely in the air by his own pigtail.
2.6 Indivisible Unity
[9] The third form of Monism is the one that sees even in the simplest thing (the atom), the union of both Matter and Mind. But nothing is gained by this either, for here again the question, which really originates in our consciousness, is shifted to another place. How does the simple thing manifest itself in a two-fold way, if it is an indivisible unity?
2.7 Contrast Ourselves
[10] In regard to all these points of view, we must emphasize the fact that it is within our own consciousness that we first encounter the fundamental and original polarity. It is we who free ourselves from the mother ground of Nature and contrast ourselves as "I" with the "World". Goethe has given classic expression to this in his essay Nature, although his manner of expression may at first sight be considered completely unscientific: "Living in the midst of her (Nature) we are strangers to her. Ceaselessly she speaks to us, yet tells us none of her secrets." But Goethe also knows the reverse side: "Human beings are all within her and she is within all human beings."
2.8 Feel We Belong
[11] It is true that we have estranged ourselves from Nature; but it is just as true that we feel we are within her and belong to her. It can only be Nature’s own working that also lives in us.
2.9 Know Nature Within
[12] We must find the way back to her again. A simple reflection can show us the way. We have, it is true, torn ourselves away from Nature, but we must still have taken something over into our own being. This essence of Nature within us we must seek out, and then we will discover the connection with her once again. Dualism misses this. It considers the human Mind as a spiritual entity totally alien to Nature, and then seeks somehow to connect it to Nature. No wonder that it cannot find the connecting link. We can find Nature outside us only if we first know her within us. What is akin to Nature within us will be our guide. With this our path is mapped out for us. We will not engage in any speculations about the interaction between Mind and Matter. We will rather descend into the depths of our own being, to find those elements that we saved in our escape from Nature.
2.10 Something More Than “I"
[13] The exploration of our own being must bring us the solution to the riddle. We must come to a point where we can say to ourselves: Here we are no longer merely 'I', here is something that is more than 'I'.
2.11 Description Of Experience
[14] I am aware that some who have read this far will not find my remarks in conformity with "the current position of science." I can only reply that, so far, I have not been concerned with scientific results of any kind, but rather with the simple description of what every one of us experiences in his own consciousness. A few sentences about attempts to reconcile Mind with the World have been included only to clarify the actual facts. This is why I attach no value to using single expressions like "I," "Mind", World," "Nature," in the precise way that is usual in Psychology and Philosophy.
2.12 Facts Without Interpretation
The ordinary consciousness is unaware of the sharp distinctions made by the sciences, and up to this point it has only been a matter of recording the facts of everyday experience. To object that the above discussions have been unscientific would be like quarreling with the reciter of a poem for failing to accompany every line at once with aesthetic criticism. What concerns me is not how science, so far, has interpreted consciousness, but rather how we experience it hour by hour.


Split
Tom, I can see and appreciate your point about the currency of contemporary debate over mind and matter.
There continues to be a confusion that I meet principally among folk interested in anthroposophy because that is where I spend most of my time. This confusion is between mind and spirit. This is because - to borrow and plagiarise from PoF: Chap 1:9 - Too little attention has been given to this question because, unfortunately, we have always torn in two the inseparable whole that is the German word 'Geist'.
Geist holds in the one hand spirit and in the other hand mind. So PoF never needed to make explicit a distinction between mind and spirit. German readers could make of this what their predisposition preferred. Of course English is forced by necessity to make such a distinction and what a job we have in making whole that which was never split.
Is this not ironic for the age of consciousness soul development?
Do you consider 'predisposition' to be an adequate replacement translation for the term 'characterological disposition'?
characterological disposition
In chapter 1 the characterological disposition is referred to as a "necessity" which lends itself to being a "predisposition". But the characterological disposition is more accurately our individual make-up that determines our predisposition. It is an awkward word, but appears to be a scientific term.
-ological: used to form adjectives; belonging or relating to a particular type of scientific study
biological
technological
1-4 ”even though we ourselves must first raise mental pictures into motives, we do not do this arbitrarily, but rather according to the necessity of our characterological disposition, that is, we are anything but free.”
9-3 An act of will is therefore not merely the outcome of the concept or the mental picture but also of the individual make-up of the person. Here we may well follow the example of Eduard von Hartmann and call this individual make-up the characterological disposition. The manner in which concept and mental picture affects the characterological disposition of a man gives to his life a definite moral or ethical stamp.
[8] The characterological disposition is formed by the more or less permanent content of our subjective life, that is, by the content of our mental pictures and feelings.
"Term" and "Scientific Term"
Does not a "term" as a term - according to terminology - require a definition?
What is a "scientific term"?
terminology and determining cause
This is a fair point, Tom.
A term - any term - is useful as long as it serves to represent an idea or concept that we are familiar with. If a term is unfamiliar then it can motivate us to find out what it means. No problem.
Does the term characterological disposition mean predispositions determined by my character, or does it mean that my character is determined by predispositions in my physiology where we can identify such needs as hunger and thirst?
This may look like hair-splitting but it seems to be significant in Chapter 1 as a baby's hunger appears as a particular element in Stener's argument. Maybe it does not matter for the wider progression of Steiner's argument but I would like to be clear about it at this point - if that is possible.
characterological
I find it difficult to come up with a better term. Characterological disposition would mean our character built up by nature and education. It would express itself as disposition and be a predisposition.
characterological would point to a field of study, study of individual make-up or character givine it a broad range.
characterological disposition
character disposition
character predisposition
characterological disposition (charakterologische Anlage) is defined by Steiner as one's individual make-up (individuelle Beschaffenheit)
individuelle Beschaffenheit: (german dictionary) a characteristic property that defines the apparent individual nature of something.
disposition: a natural or acquired habit or characteristic tendency in a person or thing
predisposition: tendency to do something such as behave in a particular way
character: The peculiar quality, or the sum of qualities, by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others; the stamp impressed by nature, education, or habit; that which a person or thing really is; nature; disposition.
-ological: used to form adjectives; belonging or relating to a particular type of scientific study
biological
technological
charakterologische Anlage
Looking through your dictionary work, Tom, it becomes evident that we do not need to use such an unusual word for charakterologische Anlage if we take the account of individuelle Beschaffenheit to accurately represent what von Hartmann understood by the term he used.
Charakter | anlage
translates as natural tendency or disposition according to my German/English brick of a Dictionary.
Obviously no dictionary can be the arbiter of an author's intentions, but one example gives -
characterological: of, relating to, or based on character or the study of character including its development and its differences in different individuals.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/characterological
Thus characterological disposition could give the impression that disposition is based on a conscious study of one's character. The point of the von Hartmann quote in Chapter 1 seems to be that it does not consider the conscious study of one's disposition.
Here are some candidates to consider that seem to me to avoid introducing the issue of studied or not studied. They result from taking advice from my German wife who, admittedly, is not into philosophy.
character's predisposition
character-derived disposition
characteristic disposition
characteristic predisposition
predisposition resulting from one's character
nomenclature
I didn't know characterological was even a real English word. Characterological disposition is an important term in chapter 9. While in chapter 1 "disposition" may be emphasized in chapter 9 "character make-up" is emphasized. The terms you listed seem to emphasiize disposition which may work in chapter 1, but not so well in chapter 9.
This is an important term. I should open a Journal where we can list and define a POF nomenclature and include some alternative terms to mull over. It could be an ongoing topic.
My chapter topic headings have also always been an attempt to name the various states of being descibed in POF that relate to the world outlooks.
nomenclature: a system of words used in a particular discipline
Mr. Last's favorite word: "term"
If "characterological" is a "real" English word or not (which obviously can be easily ascertained by a minimum of research) - if it isn't, it can become one.
Since you often use the word "term", why don't you explain to your readers what you mean by it? Does Steiner use it somewhere in his book? What is the difference between "term" and "expression" (see the last paragraph of the chapter about which this "working group" thread supposedly is concerned).
"This information is given without liability" (Ohne Gewähr)
The contributor here named John Ralph who previously demonstrated his devotion to the English word "mind" - now above informs Mr. Last that "it becomes evident that we do not need to use such an unusual word" - this time in regard to words which in fact are part of Steiner's German text.
Which "brick of a" German-English bilingual dictionary Mr. Ralph says to have a copy remains unnamed, whereas the American English source is named - good old online Merriam Webster - to show Mr. Last that the English word "characterological" exists(!), but with a warning reminiscent of bad old times: "characterological disposition could give the impression that disposition is based on a conscious study of one's character".
Why must Tom be warned? Such a misreading by the reader of our warner's imagination would require that the meaning of "or" be ignored: "characterological: of, relating to, or based on character or the study of character including...." Does Mr. Ralph believe Mr. Last might overlook the English word "or" when he reads the dictionary?
Mr. Ralph contributes the following insight to our better understanding of Conscious Human Action: "The point of the von Hartmann quote in Chapter 1 seems to be that it does not consider the conscious study of one's disposition". What difference does it make?
"No problem"
Does "A baby's hunger .... appear as a particular element of Steiner's argument"? It does appear as an example for something in the excerpt from a letter translated into German which Steiner believes to have understood better than the letter's author.
Don't stop now
Don't stop reading at the Spinoza letter in Chapter 1, Beginner. Further on in that chapter you will find that Steiner asks his own question about whether all forms of human activity can be regarded as so much crying for mother's milk. This question forms a foundation for Steiner's argument that the question of freedom cannot be considered in isolation. Is it not reasonable for Steiner to build the argument in his text out of extant philosophical texts?
You are correct in pointing ot that I should be consistent in my referencing. I use a copy of Cassell's German Dictionary from 1978. If I could find one from the early 1900s I would use that in preference as it would better reflect the usage of the language in Steiner's time.
Thank you for the soapbox image, Beginner. I had not previously noticed that aspect of my writing. Very perceptive. Are your reasons for posting here different to mine?
Mr. Ralph's supposed interest in Steiner's language
Three of the four cases are intended to be examples for actions of which the doer is conscious of the motive which instigates his action, the fourth is an example for an action of which the doer is not conscious of the motive which instigates his action. Comparison requires a common attribute. What is compared is in view of the attribute of consciousness. The assertion: "This question forms....." etc. should be elaborated on text excerpts. Such expressions as "foundation" need explication.
What justification does the question: "is it not reasonable for Steiner..." have? How can this question help the reader understand Steiner's text better?
Beginner's Question
Beginner wrote:
What justification does the question: "is it not reasonable for Steiner..." have? How can this question help the reader understand Steiner's text better?
Steiner did not start from an abstract or invented postion in the book we are translating. He did not assume that the reader accepts any aspects of spiritual research in the way many of his later lectures assumed a basic understanding of anthroposophy. The reader needs to know that the book extends and develops an existing epistomological thread of reasoning in an original direction.
Steiner made his beginning at a philosophical position that others had reached before. That means that we need to consider the terminology of Steiner's line of argument in the context from which it he drew it as much as we can from our distant time. We cannot just fish out terminology for our English translation from all waters. We must fish in the waters of the earlier thinkers for the roots of the terminology that Steiner adopted as he laid out the foundations of his argument.
By 'fishing in the waters' I mean to graphically express my experience of what it feels like to find apposite terms in English for the German text of Steiner.
I notice that I make numerous incorrect assumptions when I post here about how words have a shared meaning. I learn a lot if I inadvertantly write something and get a response that shows my intended meaning to be lost on a reader. I assume that readers can access a dictionary themselves and that brevity is more suited to the online discourse on this site than lengthy and complex fulminations. Detailed semantics are the stuff of our translation work online, but it would be a shame if we adopted a writing style that is impenetrable to interested readers. So thanks for asking a clarifying question, Beginner.
Get to the point, please, Mr. Ralph
For your information, Mr. Ralph, you did not answer my request for justification of your question.
(This should be apparent to the other readers, but since you mention me, I don't want anybody to think I consider what you wrote to be the answer to what I asked you.)
I repeat: I asked you why your question should help the readers understand Steiner's text better.
Empty pockets
Beginner, I have no more to add to the reason I gave above, concerning the reader being informed of the starting point of Steiner's argument. The reader is helped by this.
That is my reason and I am hiding nothing.
How to help the reader know what you mean, Mr. Ralph
If you claim to speak of "Steiner's argument", you should specify to which argument you refer.
Specifically but not exclusively
I referred to the part of Steiner's text in Chapter 1. from:
Trotzdem richten sich bis zum heutigen Tage die Hauptangriffe der Freiheitsgegner nur gegen die Wahlfreiheit.
to:
Und dies fhrt unmittelbar auf den Standpunkt, von dem aus hier die Sache angesehen werden soll.
in particular, but also to the whole chapter.
I believed that this was self-evident. My apologies.
Mr. Ralph needs correct name: "INDIFFERENTE Wahlfreiheit"
Mr. Ralph's first Steiner quotation:
"Trotzdem richten sich bis zum heutigen Tage die Hauptangriffe der Freiheitsgegner nur gegen die Wahlfreiheit" (Das bewusste menschliche Handeln)
contains an ellipse: Wahlfreiheit - Steiner omitted indifferente, which in formal logic might be named a specification of freedom of choice:
1. freedom
2. what kind of freedom? Freedom of choice
3. what kind of freedom of choice? indifferent
Correct: The main attacks of the opponents of freedom are directed only against indifferent freedom of choice.
Incorrect: The main attacks of the opponents of freedom are directed only against freedom of choice.
Stumped!
I do not get your point at all Beginner, sorry.
What do you mean ellipse? Please define this term.
Why did Steiner not write indifferente Wahlfreihiet?
Was he avoiding standard philosphical terms at this point? I noticed that he avoided using 'determinism' in chapter 1 and spelled out the causal idea. Tom had at one point proposed to substitute the English philosophical term for its apparent description in the German, which jarred for me. It seemed careless to introduce a philosophical term without defining it. In reference to another exchange with Beginner, it seems to me quite evident that Steiner did not choose to assume that his readership were informed about philosophical terms.
elliptical
ellipsis
PS: I have the impression Steiner wrote for a cultivated reading group, not for sectarians who prefer to remain in their preconceived and provincial horizon because it is comfortable.
ellipsis
There is no ellipsis in my German copy of the book. from 1984. Sorry, but you really will need to explain if I am to understand your point.
Mr. Ralph's most recent problem of comprehension
Ellipsis is the omission of an implied word.
PS: Why do you have such a problem understanding my simple English?
Definition
Thank you for that clarification, Beginner - actually you had a good point about the missing word. I only wish you would explain just a little more, rather than set [us] the kind of question that I can get from any world percept.
It was late last night in my time zone when your simple ellipse got me laughing. I thought you were making a joke at first, but it turned out to be a typo. Sorry for joking back inappropriately.
Terminology Corner
Typo - uncharacterological tendency to make weird typing errors - happens to me all the time, which is why online conversation is so time consuming.
Joke - a percept with a hidden agenda - sometimes amusing
Source: Quid ego feci?
"I only wish you would explain just a little more"
Mr. Ralph wants me to explain a little more why he has difficulty understanding the Steiner text and what I have written about it. I have observed when I reply to Mr. Ralph, he doesn't really exchange with what I say about the Steiner text. Mr. Ralph's behavior differs from that of Mr. Last, who usually just ignores my questions.
Mr. Ralph prefers others do explanation
Mr. Ralph concedes "a good point about the missing word" - i.e. "indifferente" specified by Strauss, but doesn't bother to explain why he sees it so.
Old Dictionaries
John: If I could find one (dictionary) from the early 1900s I would use that in preference as it would better reflect the usage of the language in Steiner's time.
OneLook dictionary lists several online dictionaries inclusing Webster's Revised Unabridged 1913 Edition.
Good old dictionaries
Dictionaries are good, philosophical dictionaries better, but philosophical and psychological research best.
Old German/English Dictionary?
Thanks Tom.
What I would really like for Christmas is an old German/English Dictionary, but probably Beginner does not think my behaviour to be sufficiently good to earn a visit from Father Christmas this year.
Please return to earth, Spaceman J.R.
I recommend you look for a historical dictionary of philosophy - not for your shelf, but to consult in connection with German words which appear in Steiner's book. This new source would be a help for you to get grounded.
From my parachute
Please recommend a good historical dictionary of philosophy that I will be able to read and learn from, Beginner.
Thanks from Mr. StarsBetweenMyEars
Your request for a recommendation about special dictionaries
I suggest you ask the secretary of Peter Simons at Trinity College in Dublin, if Prof. Simons makes any special recommendations to his students who find themselves in a similar situation as you - who study Austro-German philosophy and psychology - and would like English or German-English dictionaries to help them understand German language of philosophical and psychology. (This does not mean that Peter Simons is interested in Steiner - I doubt very much that he is - but I know that Prof. Simons is very interested in the philosophy and psychology of the time and place which Steiner shared with others who had similar problems.)
Geist and Mind
"our task is to introduce readers to Steiner's concepts of spirit and soul."-Wilson
I totally disagree with Wilson's idea that the task of the translator is to introduce the reader to theosophy's concepts of spirit and soul. You can't write a science book starting from the assumption of spirit and soul, that would be a faith-based religious book. The Philosophy of Freedom is for the world of science, not for old theosophists.
I prefer to start with Mind, which we all can recognize and agree on, and then broaden its meaning. The other choice is to start with Spirit, but this is unacceptable today. Or you make up a term like Mind/Spirit but this would really confuse English people. With the development of pure thinking the reader is led to the experience of intuition which opens up spiritual questions; spiritual science questions based on thinking and observation, not spiritual faith questions.
But the Philosophy of Freedom does deal with Spiritualism and Spirit in the appropriate place. Each chapter presents 12 views. The 2nd view is Spiritism and the 8th view is Pneumatism (doctrine of the spirit). The theosophist translators expand these two view points beyond their appropriate boundaries because of their one-sided point of view. Even Steiner revised POF 25 years later to try and help the theosophists understand the book.
Wilson introduction
SPIRIT, SOUL and MIND are not precise equivalents in English of the German Geist and Seele. Perhaps because we use the concept of mind to include all our experiences through thinking, the concepts of spirit and soul have practically dropped out of everyday use, whereas in German there is no distinct equivalent for “mind” and the concepts “spirit” (Geist) and “soul” (Seele) are consequently broader in scope. Any work describing Steiner's point of view in terms of English philosophy would have to deal with the mind as a central theme (see fn 5), but here our task is to introduce readers to Steiner's concepts of spirit and soul. For Steiner, the spirit is experienced directly in the act of intuitive thinking. The human spirit is that part of us that thinks, but the spiritual world is not limited to the personal field of the individual human being; it opens out to embrace the eternal truths of existence. The English word “spirit” gives the sense of something more universal, less personal, than “mind”, and since Steiner's philosophical path leads to an experience of the reality of the spiritual world, I have kept the word wherever possible, using “mind” or “mental” in a few places where it seemed more appropriate. The “spiritual activity” here meant is thus more than mental activity, although it starts at a level we would call mental; it leads the human being, aware of himself as a spirit, into the ultimate experience of truth.
Mr. Last misinterprets Michael Wilson
Tom Last claims Michael Wilson is concerned with theosophy, but offers no proof. On the contrary, careful reading of translator Wilson's text passage which Mr. Last provides beneath his false accusation shows that Mr. Last misrepresents Wilson's view and contradicts what Mr. Last claims. Wilson does not mention either theosophy or Theosophy. Wilson does speak of "Steiner's philosophical path".
Anthroposophy is commonly
Anthroposophy is commonly defined as a branch of Theosophy.
Mr. Last's curious definition and its alleged relevance
What is the relevance of your assertion: "Anthroposophy is commonly defined as a branch of Theosophy" to your misinterpretation of Michael Wilson?
Are you trying to imply Michael Wilson has such a "definition" of Anthroposophy? If so, please do state where!
Mr. Last's accusations against Wilson
There is a problem between early and late Steiner - that is, if Steiner about Goethe's natural scientific expositions and philosophy is somehow broken from later Steiner about research of spiritual domains other than thinking. Michael Wilson might have been concerned about this problem of transition or lack of transition. Wilson's translation was sloppy, and I have no information that Wilson was philosophically trained. Why is Wilson important? What Mr. Last writes about Wilson Mr. Last does not show by concrete quotations. What use is it to claim, as Mr. Last does, that Wilson starts with the assumption of spirit and soul without any evidence?
Refutation of nonsense about Steiner's German text
It is not necessary to comment on such confusion as "Geist holds in the one hand spirit and in the other hand mind" because it is only the opinion of its author and as such is a diversion from the topic of this website, if this topic is better understanding of this chapter of Steiner's book. However, the next statement: "So Philosophy of Freedom never needed to make explicit a distinction between mind and spirit" must be contradicted because it is wrong and such nonsense only confuses those persons who want to understand Steiner. "Mind" is an English word and has nothing to do with Steiner's German text of his book. Another opinion: "German readers could make of this what their predisposition preferred" must also be contradicted as absurd as already explained - "mind" is English, not German, and because there are thinkers who do not read according to "predisposition".
This is a working group
This is a working group rather than merely a discussion group. We are discussing translation issues that require the select of specific English words. What English words would you use to deal with these translation difficulties?
Mr. Last wants to understand "mind"
There is no translation difficulty because the German word "Geist" must not be translated by the English word "mind". The English word "spirit" suffices. The problem is to understand what the author means by "Geist".
I understand that certain persons here want to understand the English word "mind" if they use it and if they wish to understand persons who use this word. Steiner does not use this word "mind".
Certain persons on this website are quite aware that they selected "freedom" for "Freiheit" when for the translation of the title Die Philosophie der Freiheit into English. You know Steiner preferred another English translation: spiritual activity.
Since some persons are so concerned with this English word - "mind" - which doesn't appear in the GERMAN original of Steiner's book Die Philosophie der Freiheit, perhaps you might research to see if Steiner said anywhere anything about this English word "mind"?
Integrity of text
I am slightly wary of your view, Tom, that Steiner may have weakened the original text by trying to open its arguments up to those who were versed in a theosophical approach. Could those changes possibly reveal an attempt by Steiner to more closely empathise with a further disposition of the 7 moods he described in Human and Cosmic Thought related to the planetary spheres? It is not yet evident me that such amendments shift the main thrust of PoF into a non-scientific realm. Nevertheless I take on board your wish Tom to address contemporary scientific discourse. It is clear to me that there are many folk in the world who do have a profound experience of the reality of the spiritual world - as a 'given' experience rather than an assumption - who are delighted to meet a scientific approach.
It is obvious, Tom, that a translator has no business pursuing a personal agenda under the guise of the original author's text. I have noticed that Wilson is prone to interpret some of Steiner's texts to his own satisfaction at times. This is not to detract from his achievements as a translator. Wilson has been highly influential in raising the profile of Steiner's work. He shows that, along with most of us, he is vulnerable to his innate inclinations. It is often said that our vulnerabilities are what makes us human. Steiner has observed that this quality of unrealised development is a prime motivator towards the development of truly human qualities. So Steiner's view could be represented by saying that our vulnerabilities are what will make us human. We can learn such a lot from the vulnerabilities that may be more obvious in one another than in ourselves.
I hope that it is becoming obvious, at least to Beginner, that this, and my recent posts, are a practice ground for the application of terms related to characterological disposition. I am exploring how useful existing English terms can be applied in written debate. Beginner, you are right that the comment about the predispositions of readers, which was intentionally 'tongue in cheek', was entirely vacuous.
I assume that Beginner uses the word opinion to label the outcomes of my individualised nature, which can be analysed as lacking objectivity in their expression. Fair enough, but does the presence of personal expression inevitably invalidate the thoughts themselves? This is certainly as relevant a concern for a translator as for an author. We are inevitably going to remove traces of Steiner's style of writing by recasting the text of PoF in English while doing the best we can to sustain the integrity of the thinking expressed by the author. There is huge scope for reinterpretation and misunderstanding in this realm, and I sincerely hope that we will continue to carefully scrutinise this collaborative translation work for garish evidence of personal colourings. My greatest hope is that our best work will transcend such tendencies and allow the text to shine in its own light. Let us suffer for it now rather than later.
The skill of writing is to create a context in which other people can think. -- Edwin Schlossberg
"Let us suffer for it now"
No, Mr. Ralph, "it is" not "becoming obvious, at least" to me "that this, and" your "recent posts, are a practice ground for the application of terms related to characterological disposition." (Mr. Last must be quite charmed by how you are "exploring how useful existing English terms can be applied in written debate" - because he doesn't advise you this is not a "discussion group".)
What is "obvious" is the quality of your writing style as soapbox verbiage and your empty criticism of Michael Wilson's translation.
at the risk of sounding
at the risk of sounding like a troll like this "beginner" entity, can I ask if anyone involved in this discussion of translations of POF is either a native German speaker or has a degree in German language and/or philosophy?
collective intelligence
I don't have any accredited credentials for anything. I think the other participants have more. Hopefully more qualified people would participate. I find the professional academics peddling their papers online for a fee, so they don't seem to understand the cultural value of a free exchange of ideas. But the internet is changing things by providing translation programs, extensive search ability, transparency, and global communication.
The old way is to have a highly accredited individual become an authority on a subject. The new way is to experiment with collective intelligence facilitated by modern communication technology. It is a modern application of the principle worked with in contemplative conversation.
The young people have been very successful with volunteer collective thinking work projects that have produced things like free open source software. This is occuring more on tech websites likely as a result of the high level of pure thinking achieved by tech people today.
Of course anthroposophists lag behind in these new developments as a result of clinging to older traditions and being less developed in pure thinking, but thanks to the internet I am finding a few.
Collaborators
Fair question, Danterosati.
For my part I am making use of a number of native German speakers in my community, some of whom have done translation work. My German is not fluent by any means but I have some years of experience working with Steiner verses that have been well received by native German speakers. My contribution will be to bring greater fluency to the English text. This work has not appeared onsite yet.
The critical knack is to find the way of translating the thoughts into English. So I appreciate that it is necessary to thoroughly understand a text before casting it into English. My approach involves slow, rhythmical contemplation of a text. Any errors will be open to inspection here.
The perspective of someone active in philospical study would be helpful. Do you have a background that could support this collaboration?
There was someone doing
There was someone doing "revisionings" of Buddhist Sutras on some website a while back. What this meant was, without any expertise (or knowledge at all apparently) of the source languages (Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, Chinese), he was taking the existing English translations and futzing with them, based on his, erm, "deep understanding" of Buddhist Philosophy. Personally, I find this extremely problematic. I prefer to read translations done by scholars who have devoted their professional lives to studying both the languages as well as the cultural and philosophical contexts from which the text comes.
scholars revise scholars
While a scholarly translation has its advantages it also has its disadvantages depending how much the translator has experienced the book and what their bias is. The scholar Hoernel's 1922 translation was heavily revised by the scholar Poppelbaum in 1939.
You have to remember that Steiner suggested the book be re-written in a hundred years (which is now). In other words, he hoped for more than a mere translation update. This would diminish the value of a historically scholarly work of POF for today.
But this new translation is really just trying to make the text more comprehensible. If a scholarly error is found in the new translation I hope someone points it out. I think anyone looking will find it within the scholarship range of the other translations, but just more comprehensible.
Explanation?
Above is Mr. Last's English translation of a sentence from Fundamental Urge to Science:
"We seek everywhere for what we call explanation of the facts."
What does Mr. Last offer us when he writes above in "scholars revise scholars":
"The scholar Hoernel's translation was revised by the scholar Poppelbaum".
If Mr. Last wants to defame Poppelbaum and Hoernel as "scholars" - both long dead, why doesn't he give his website an appropriate title and stop deceiving persons who think this is about Steiner's book?
Who understand Steiner's text better when Mr. Last labels Hoernel or Poppelbaum "scholars"?
If there is any "revision" by Poppelbaum - a biologist and native speaker of German - of an English translation by Hoernel - about whose profession and native tongue Mr. Last does not inform us- what is this revision (facts) and what is the explanation for why Poppelbaum translated differently?
threat to POF
The original 1916 POF English translation was done by Hoernle, Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Harverd University, USA, formerly of Oxford, and his wife. "their thorough knowledge of philosophy and their complete command of the German and English languages enabled them to overcome the difficulty of finding adequate English equivalents for the terms of German Philosophy." Harry Collison, editor.
Poppelbaum decided to revise Hoernle's terms solely based on his being considered an expert in Rudolf Steiner's works. It doesn't say he is an expert on POF, but on Steiner's "works". He revised the text according to Steiner's later works which I consider a major error. Steiner did not want theosophy in POF. POF was meant to stand the test of time. Adding theosophy threatens its long term existence.
I consider myself, not an expert on Steiner's later works, but on POF itself based on practicing the proper study of POF over a 20 year period and logging in much more study time than anyone else in the history of the book. At least I know what it says without confusing that with what Steiner wrote later for the ears of theosophists.
Explanation of "Explanation of the facts" RST, Chapter 2?
1, Hoernle - Mr. Last simply repeats what presumably was on the book cover written by the editor - this is the result of "logging in much more study time than anyone else in the history of the book"?
2. Poppelbaum - similar to Mr. Ralph, Mr. Last must be reminded to provide accurate sources for his quotations. Who judged Poppelbaum a Steiner expert? (Steiner was long dead when Poppelbaum published his English translation.) Mr. Last tells us: "It" - is "It" Mr. Last himself or again does Mr. Last simply repeat the book cover text written by the publisher?
Mr. Last tells us what Poppelbaum did: "He revised the text according to Steiner's later works.." Mr. Last does not bother to say which of Steiner's later works, nor does Mr. Last offer any proof. But Mr. Last knows what "Steiner did not want" - "theosophy in POF"! Sound familiar? Right, that's Mr. Last on Michael Wilson! When will we get some facts about how Wilson or Poppelbaum "revised the text to Steiner's later works"?
3. Mr. Last's view: "POF was meant to stand the test of time." This is Mr. Last's problem, but an author's problem might be that his readers understand what he wrote. What do readers of this website expect? Do they expect help to understand the text of Steiner's book?
Mr. Last prefers warning us the "long-run existence" of Steiner's book is "threatened" by what Mr. Last calls "theosophy". If Mr. Last is convinced other translators didn't understand what Steiner wrote in his book, why doesn't Mr. Last show us these passages he believes falsely translated and explain why?
Social Reflective Practice
One of the topics that I cover in my 'academic' work is reflective practice. Solo reflective practitioners can all too easily work their thinking up a dead end of prejudice, or paint their ideas into corners, unless they are exceptionally alert. The remedy for this is to share reflective thinking in a social context of exploratory dialogue.
As an 'old lag' of an anthroposopher - who keeps his anthropos's 'phist' wrapped up in silk veil on a high shelf and out of harm's way - I am excited by the opportunites this site offers to receive global feedback on exploratory thinking. I am sure that the cohesive aim of this translation will be a rich learning ground for us all with its open and diverse group work. The work is slower and more complex than traditional methods but I do not sense that the translation work intends to be any quick sensational splash. It is a leap of trust into the deepest of waters.
How about A Freeing Philosophy as the title of the new translation, Tom?
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